Need an Opinion - Privacy Issue?

[Domenic]

I live next to our private community swim club (I am a member). Got my P3 before the swim season this year and not wanting to be "creepy" I had never flown over the pool while it was open with people. Tonight my son was playing water basketball so I flew over videoing him and his friends. As you can see they enjoyed the attention, other kids were waving, and at least one adult was taking a video of me. Of course I got a voicemail from the pool manager (she wasn't there) after the lifeguards freaked out and called her. I took off from my property, was in constant line of sight, etc.

Video is here:

Now I get all of the potential privacy issues with people at a pool getting recorded BUT in this case the focus / purpose of the video was me making a home movie of my son playing basketball with his friends. It's quite common now a days for parents (even at this pool) to take videos of their kids since everyone has a "camcorder" on their cell phone. What is different with me doing the same thing with my "flying camera"? Actually since its noisy and conspicuous I would argue this is more open than a cell phone because people _know_ they are in the shot.

Anyway, I am playing phone tag with this pool manager and of course I will promise not to fly over again if they don't want me to. Where actually is the line these days? Like I said I can't see any difference here than me standing next to the pool with my iPhone recording the same video. I guess there could be be a safety concern if the P3 crashed on someone in the pool but then again I was filming a bunch of people throwing a basketball around... Again I will respect their wishes but my point here is around the privacy issue. Everyone is recording each other with cell phones & taking pictures anyway, if done in a similar context why is a drone any different?

DOM

 

[snerd]

"............. It's quite common now a days for parents (even at this pool) to take videos of their kids since everyone has a "camcorder" on their cell phone. What is different with me doing the same thing with my "flying camera"?

Because the media has told them drones are evil. That's what is different.

 

[AlmostTan]

I agree there is no difference between your drone and someone's cell phone camera.

However, I think the pool manager has a right to defend the privacy of anyone taking a video of children, especially in their bathing suits, at their property. You can do what you want (they have no jurisdiction to make you stop, since you took off from your own property) but I don't think it's really necessary for you to cause the stir about it.

 

[tgarcia]

Its truly amazing how people react when they see a drone. Like its an alien spaceship coming to probe them.

 

[tgarcia]

If a drone were dead silent id say yes you could be a sicko but as loud as these birds are ur not taking some sort of spy video

 

[Domenic]

I agree there is no difference between your drone and someone's cell phone camera.

However, I think the pool manager has a right to defend the privacy of anyone taking a video of children, especially in their bathing suits, at their property. You can do what you want (they have no jurisdiction to make you stop, since you took off from your own property) but I don't think it's really necessary for you to cause the stir about it.

As I said I fully intend to comply and not make a stir about anything. But the point is should I ask if anyone else that takes a video of their kids with a standard cell phone is subject to the same restrictions?

 

[cdronefly]

The proper thing to do would have been to contact the lifeguards and/or anyone else there before doing so and asking them if it was OK. Chances are it may have been.

Think about it - using the Golden Rule. If each of those boys parents wanted to fly over there unannounced, would it have been OK?
If you wanted to bring in a camera extension or set up a cable over the pool with a camera...without asking...would that have been OK?

This also goes past privacy. Flying over people is a no-no in general.

So, IMHO, you were wrong in this case. I would not have done a shoot like that without express permission.

 

[snerd]

^^^ This! Cell phones have been accepted into the lifestyles of humanoids. Drones have not. You better have all your ducks in a row when doing "anything" involving a drone. Sad, but true.

 

[witold]

Basically, put yourself in other people's shoes. When your quad draws just a little blood from any one of those kids, that lifeguard and property manager are going to have a lot of explaining to do as to why they let a 3 pound quad fly and didn't even bother to figure out who was flying. When something goes wrong for you, it is they who can easily get fired and it is the property management company that might be sued/etc. Of course they care.

The problem is that they have zero incentive to put their *** on the line for you. They don't know what exactly you are flying, how much experience you have, how much common sense you have, etc. It's just easier to say that they don't allow X for Y reasons...

All that said, in many situations, it is common courtesy to inform people - in this case, legal guardians - that you are taking their photos/videos. You don't have to be paranoid about it but you will see how differently people react when they are (1) aware, (2) you talk to them. It's a whole different vibe when you just start flying around people without asking or even saying what you are doing.

Just because you don't worry about 3 pounds falling on your kids' head doesn't mean that everyone else wants to be exposed to the risk you want to take and be forced to proactively track you down - as they have - so that you stop. It's a bit unfair to them, don't you think?

As always, someone might hate you and roadblock you just out of spite. But if you have decent social skills, establishing a little rapport and implicit consent is not just the right thing to do logistically, it is also the courteous thing to do.

NO, I DO NOT THINK IT'S A BIG DEAL. But at the same time, even when a risk is very small, it is only fair to make people aware so that they can decide for themselves whether they are willing to accept that risk or not. It is not up to you to decide what sort of -additional- risk should be acceptable to them.

 

[Domenic]

Basically, put yourself in other people's shoes. When your quad draws just a little blood from any one of those kids, that lifeguard and property manager are going to have a lot of explaining to do as to why they let a 3 pound quad fly and didn't even bother to figure out who was flying. When something goes wrong for you, it is they who can easily get fired and it is the property management company that might be sued/etc. Of course they care.

The problem is that they have zero incentive to put their *** on the line for you. They don't know what exactly you are flying, how much experience you have, how much common sense you have, etc. It's just easier to say that they don't allow X for Y reasons...

All that said, in many situations, it is common courtesy to inform people - in this case, legal guardians - that you are taking their photos/videos. You don't have to be paranoid about it but you will see how differently people react when they are (1) aware, (2) you talk to them. It's a whole different vibe when you just start flying around people without asking or even saying what you are doing.

Just because you don't worry about 3 pounds falling on your kids' head doesn't mean that everyone else wants to be exposed to the risk you want to take and be forced to proactively track you down - as they have - so that you stop. It's a bit unfair to them, don't you think?

As always, someone might hate you and roadblock you just out of spite. But if you have decent social skills, establishing a little rapport and implicit consent is not just the right thing to do logistically, it is also the courteous thing to do.

NO, I DO NOT THINK IT'S A BIG DEAL. But at the same time, even when a risk is very small, it is only fair to make people aware so that they can decide for themselves whether they are willing to accept that risk or not. It is not up to you to decide what sort of -additional- risk should be acceptable to them.

I get it and completely agree with the safety concerns of this. I can see how flying the quad over a pool with people is a legitimate issue and not a good idea. Now with that being said the complaint on the voicemail I received wasn't related to that - their problem was that I was videoing (my own son). The lifeguard was upset because of this and not safety. Heck, he could have blown his whistle and cleared the pool until the UFO went away to make sure no one got hurt. This is actually the routine procedure when lightning is seen or thunder is heard.

My intent in posting however was to highlight & discuss the privacy aspect comparing videoing my own child playing basketball with friends with the P3 vs a regular cell phone. I simply don't see any difference.

Also, remember I live next to this private swim club and I am a member. It isn't a secret that I have a copter. In fact I routinely fly above my own back yard and many of the kids from the pool come over to see it. My son and his friends were the subject of the video and were aware that it was being taken by me via the P3. This was't a case of a random UAV showing up from nowhere randomly videoing people.

 

[sdharris]

Everyones right.

But I do think that using something like a Phantom for videoing the kids in a pool is a step too far in the current climate and while 'drones' are not main stream and sadly considered a bit of a threat. If the pool was in your back yard and you invited the family and friends over while saying "we can have a game in the pool and I will get the Phantom up and film it" then thats fine. But a public pool with people other than your children and their friends is just that bit too far right now.

Whenever I fly I am always mindful of how I would feel as a parent and if I Phantom was positioned over my children in a pool for more than just a quick fly over I would perhaps be concerned. Both from a privacy point of view and safety. Even though I know the camera needs to be pretty darn close to actually make out any detail and that the things are quite stable these days.

Perhaps when 'drones' are as common as smart phones everyone will relax.

 

[blue_goose]

I am sure there is a tv at the club house. Take the video to the clubhouse and let it play so all can see what you were doing.
Jack

 

[emilewski]

I just don't fly around people and go for nature shots and lighthouses these days. Filming people is just not worth it if you know what I mean.

 

[Erik Somoroff]

I have to agree. His intentions were good but I would be the same way . 1. an aircraft above people , 2. Filming or recording them. Like I said, intentions seem in line........just over zealous with the drone .......................

 

[JoeyJoe]

The solution is to make sure every household has a quad.
That way nobody will complain

 

[witold]

I get it and completely agree with the safety concerns of this. I can see how flying the quad over a pool with people is a legitimate issue and not a good idea. Now with that being said the complaint on the voicemail I received wasn't related to that - their problem was that I was videoing (my own son). The lifeguard was upset because of this and not safety. Heck, he could have blown his whistle and cleared the pool until the UFO went away to make sure no one got hurt. This is actually the routine procedure when lightning is seen or thunder is heard.

My intent in posting however was to highlight & discuss the privacy aspect comparing videoing my own child playing basketball with friends with the P3 vs a regular cell phone. I simply don't see any difference.

Also, remember I live next to this private swim club and I am a member. It isn't a secret that I have a copter. In fact I routinely fly above my own back yard and many of the kids from the pool come over to see it. My son and his friends were the subject of the video and were aware that it was being taken by me via the P3. This was't a case of a random UAV showing up from nowhere randomly videoing people.

Are we talking about a "real" lifeguard or some kid working their Summer job? A lot of people do their jobs as they see fit without need to justify to the public why they do X and not Y. And a lot of employees will give you a reason instead of the real reason or reasons. They are not Public Relations specialists and you can't expect every interaction and every voicemail to be structured to cover all the bases, as if it was some legal document. This is your hobby and you think about this stuff. They don't care and they don't think about it.

In regards to privacy issues alone, take your cell phone or dslr and go to your local park. Start approaching people and snapping pictures without saying a word to them. How do you think they will respond?

They will respond in the exact same way they respond when some drone with a camera starts flying near them and doing god-knows-what. In most cases, it's even worse because not only does the operator not say anything, but the people don't even know who is operating the drone. If they complain, are you going to retort that "it's your right, this is public space!"?

There's privacy, and there's also courtesy.

There are social norms out there that we prescribe to. Taking pics of kids at soccer games is perfectly fine. It's a public spectacle put on for the express enjoyment of the parents and the expectation is that you will take pics. Other situations are not nearly as clear cut. Just because it's legal doesn't mean that it's not rude or creepy. It also doesn't mean that everyone will agree on exactly when those lines are crossed. I think your example - as far as 'privacy' concerns go, is somewhat close but heavily in your favor.

But as far as safety issues go, if they don't put up a "no drones" sign at the pool they're not very professional in what they do. It is an unnecessary problem and liability for them, with no benefits to them.

Sucks for us, but that's basically how it is.

At the same time, I've seen plenty of people - including myself - get away with TONS. They key is building rapport and establishing important relationships. It sounds like you're doing this already and that's probably why you haven't had any problems in the past. But this time, someone who didn't know you or the circumstances complained leading to the current situation...

 

[Domenic]

Are we talking about a "real" lifeguard or some kid working their Summer job? A lot of people do their jobs as they see fit without need to justify to the public why they do X and not Y. And a lot of employees will give you a reason instead of the real reason or reasons. They are not Public Relations specialists and you can't expect every interaction and every voicemail to be structured to cover all the bases, as if it was some legal document. This is your hobby and you think about this stuff. They don't care and they don't think about it.

In regards to privacy issues alone, take your cell phone or dslr and go to your local park. Start approaching people and snapping pictures without saying a word to them. How do you think they will respond?

They will respond in the exact same way they respond when some drone with a camera starts flying near them and doing god-knows-what. In most cases, it's even worse because not only does the operator not say anything, but the people don't even know who is operating the drone. If they complain, are you going to retort that "it's your right, this is public space!"?

There's privacy, and there's also courtesy.

There are social norms out there that we prescribe to. Taking pics of kids at soccer games is perfectly fine. It's a public spectacle put on for the express enjoyment of the parents and the expectation is that you will take pics. Other situations are not nearly as clear cut. Just because it's legal doesn't mean that it's not rude or creepy. It also doesn't mean that everyone will agree on exactly when those lines are crossed. I think your example - as far as 'privacy' concerns go, is somewhat close but heavily in your favor.

But as far as safety issues go, if they don't put up a "no drones" sign at the pool they're not very professional in what they do. It is an unnecessary problem and liability for them, with no benefits to them.

Sucks for us, but that's basically how it is.

At the same time, I've seen plenty of people - including myself - get away with TONS. They key is building rapport and establishing important relationships. It sounds like you're doing this already and that's probably why you haven't had any problems in the past. But this time, someone who didn't know you or the circumstances complained leading to the current situation...

 

[Domenic]

Lots of good feedback here. I talked to the pool manager today. She never even questioned or brought up any sort of safety concern. Her only issue was taking pictures or video without permission from the people involved (those other than my son & his friends that may have inadvertently been captured in the video). I immediately said that was fine and agreed not to fly my drone in or around the pool area out of respect for those that have issues with it. I then however asked what the policy was for taking cell phone video or pictures in the pool area. This seemed like an obvious next question - the response back to me was "O, we don't have one, I didn't think of that". We agreed that the real problem here was just new territory for people to get their head around and it would take some "creative education". I volunteered to use the P3 to video the swim team meets next year as a means of introducing people to the technology. She liked the idea and agreed to discuss further.

The moral of this story is to GO SLOW and assume our hobby is going to by default freak people out instead of breed the excitement and interest we inherently think it will.

DOM

 

[RoyVa]

A lot of people still have the ole photo specs built in mind. When you did a photo that captured several people you had to get a release from each individual to use that photograph. With the technology of cell phones that issues has almost melted. However if you got a release from the kids parents for doing the video and showed it to the pool manager they would have to put the top lip and bottom lip together.
Just a simple one line release form is all that is needed. With their signatures. Have been there and done that before hand just for my protection especially when filming kids that are not yours. To many ready to jump on the legal action band wagon. Prove you are legit and have the necessary document closes a lot of mouths.

 

[robsquad]

"............. It's quite common now a days for parents (even at this pool) to take videos of their kids since everyone has a "camcorder" on their cell phone. What is different with me doing the same thing with my "flying camera"?

Because the media has told them drones are evil. That's what is different.

not in the UK you cant. the use of cameras and smart phones are banned in most school plays, sportsdays and events.
sad world