DENIED airspace authorization

[Jkrens]

I received my Airspace Authorization (Class D) denial letter today via email.... The reason for denial was "Your operation will be over Water".

Did I miss something here? We are not allowed to operate over open water? It is not a restricted waterway, it is a bay on Lake Michigan and I have checked all local and State laws and ordinances.

Attached is my denial letter.

I am quite frustrated by this. Looking for insight here.

 

[Jkrens]

I found this in the international text of Part 107:

"

The Small UAV Coalition sought clarification regarding whether UAS operations over water and beyond 12 nautical miles from the U.S. coast could be conducted under part 107, provided the operations are within U.S. flight information regions and not over the territory of a contracting member state.

Until such time as agreements are reached with other countries, the FAA has determined that operations will be restricted to the land areas, internal waters, and territorial sea of the United States. U.S. flight information regions that are more than 12 nautical miles from the coast of the United States do not satisfy these criteria, and as such, part 107 will not apply to operations in those areas."

Stating that inland waters are Okay.... This is an inland waterway.

 

[BigAl07]

Wow that's a new one for me. You really do learn something new every day.

 

[kenundrum]

Ironically, Lake Michigan is the only one of the great lakes that does not form a border with Canada. So definitely within the definition of internal water as it is bordered on all sides by US territory. Perhaps your coordinates were off and put you somewhere else?

 

[GMack]

#1 in the letter specifies times, dates, and location. Perhaps you were not specific enough and why it was denied? I've filed permits before and if you do not do everything to the letter and leave a question open or confusing, it gets denied.

Maybe the processor thought you wanted a blanket "Anytime I feel like it" wavier and they denied that?

Dunno. Owning these things is a mystery at times, and seems even the FAA is confused too, much less city governments.

 

[Jkrens]

Ironically, Lake Michigan is the only one of the great lakes that does not form a border with Canada. So definitely within the definition of internal water as it is bordered on all sides by US territory. Perhaps your coordinates were off and put you somewhere else?

I have triple checked my coordinates and they are exactly where I need to be. I even stated in my application that this will be a land operation with flight over water (100 yards or less over the water). I also stated that I will not be flying from a moving vehicle over water and land.

This is extremely concerning. If authorizations are being denied for reasons that aren't even valid reasons for denial, it seems that getting auth in restricted airspace will be extremely difficult.

This was for a specific time and day. I also have an application in for this same airspace over a 6 month period. Not very hopeful this will be approved either. My entire town is within this Class D airspace.

 

[JesterPhotog]

Just double checking some things... So you are sure you are within Class D airspace? Over water restriction. Never heard of such a thing. Unless they are saying you don't need a waiver since you are over water. Weird though. Maybe you move your coordinates to the beach portion of the land and tell them it will be a 1000ft. radius from that location. Don't mention that you will be over water, since it will be assumed. if you are over the water you are not breaking any "restrictions" put in place.
You know if you submit again with the same verbiage it will be some other guy looking at it and it might get approved.

Did you call the UAV help line that FAA has set up? I had to call once right before I took my Part 107 test and they were helpful.

 

[JesterPhotog]

I have triple checked my coordinates and they are exactly where I need to be. I even stated in my application that this will be a land operation with flight over water (100 yards or less over the water). I also stated that I will not be flying from a moving vehicle over water and land.

This is extremely concerning. If authorizations are being denied for reasons that aren't even valid reasons for denial, it seems that getting auth in restricted airspace will be extremely difficult.

This was for a specific time and day. I also have an application in for this same airspace over a 6 month period. Not very hopeful this will be approved either. My entire town is within this Class D airspace.

can you post the coordinates you requested?

 

[Woodsong]

How strange!
This raises an interesting question I've not contemplated...if one is in international waters outside US jurisdiction, part 107 should not apply and really should be a no-man's land at that point? I know the USA provides ATC for areas of international airspace (like pacific ocean) but once you are 12 miles out from land you are outside the jurisdictional waters and airspace of any country so.....does that mean you can fly commercially and at any elevation you want within international airspace. Not saying it would be smart or advisable to go above 400' in international airspace but it is an interesting thing to ponder. This probably raises the bigger issue that I have not studied how airspace is handled/jurisdiction in international waters outside of any country's boundaries.

 

[Jkrens]

can you post the coordinates you requested?

44.762916, -85.575256

 

[Jkrens]

Just double checking some things... So you are sure you are within Class D airspace? Over water restriction. Never heard of such a thing. Unless they are saying you don't need a waiver since you are over water. Weird though. Maybe you move your coordinates to the beach portion of the land and tell them it will be a 1000ft. radius from that location. Don't mention that you will be over water, since it will be assumed. if you are over the water you are not breaking any "restrictions" put in place.
You know if you submit again with the same verbiage it will be some other guy looking at it and it might get approved.

Did you call the UAV help line that FAA has set up? I had to call once right before I took my Part 107 test and they were helpful.

Absolutely sure about airspace. I did not know about the help line, thanks for sharing this.

 

[JesterPhotog]

Absolutely sure about airspace. I did not know about the help line, thanks for sharing this.

Oh yeah, you are definitely near an airport. Jeesh.

Looking at the letter again it says the coordinates put you out over the water. So maybe the GPS you were using (or the map program) was a few feet/meters off. Try submitting again with the coordinates closer to the street? The FAA might just take your coordinates and put them into an automated system that bounces back and says "over water" ERROR ERROR!!!!! who knows. worth a shot. They have to know that when you fly above a specific coordinates your aren't just going straight up and straight down. And there is space in your explanation to say "flying 100 ft. radius of the coordinates" or whatever you want to tell them. I would submit again with coordinates more towards the west and see what happens. That sucks.

 

[stevets]

Is it possible that the Lat./Long is truncated to to places in the seconds? The form shows two places "nn". That would put your center point in the water.

 

[kennedye]

How strange!
This raises an interesting question I've not contemplated...if one is in international waters outside US jurisdiction, part 107 should not apply and really should be a no-man's land at that point? I know the USA provides ATC for areas of international airspace (like pacific ocean) but once you are 12 miles out from land you are outside the jurisdictional waters and airspace of any country so.....does that mean you can fly commercially and at any elevation you want within international airspace. Not saying it would be smart or advisable to go above 400' in international airspace but it is an interesting thing to ponder. This probably raises the bigger issue that I have not studied how airspace is handled/jurisdiction in international waters outside of any country's boundaries.

You might still be in trouble depending on whether your flight is somewhere around the coastal air defense zones: Air Defense Identification Zone (North America) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Slickvolt]

I found this in the international text of Part 107:

"

The Small UAV Coalition sought clarification regarding whether UAS operations over water and beyond 12 nautical miles from the U.S. coast could be conducted under part 107, provided the operations are within U.S. flight information regions and not over the territory of a contracting member state.

Until such time as agreements are reached with other countries, the FAA has determined that operations will be restricted to the land areas, internal waters, and territorial sea of the United States. U.S. flight information regions that are more than 12 nautical miles from the coast of the United States do not satisfy these criteria, and as such, part 107 will not apply to operations in those areas."

Stating that inland waters are Okay.... This is an inland waterway.

Coincidentally, I was just reading the sectional chart user guide on the FAA website, Lake Michigan is specifically considered Open Water, & not an Inland Waterway, and is shaded as such on sectional charts. Now as I read the above quote...the last sentence says part 107 will NOT apply to operations in those areas...doesn’t that mean you don’t have to apply to FAA since they have deemed it outside their responsibility?